我们经常说的“老北京”，英语怎么说？
<P>从刚一知道这个网站，我就想搞明白，咱们经常说的“老北京”，应该怎么说成英语？</P><P>首先我觉得说“old beijing”是有不妥。old在英文中的意思常常与“年纪大”联系上，比如最简单的我们可以说“old men”甚至，如果对外国人说：你年纪大了，让我来照顾你。这句话时，如果直接说成：You are too old to take care of yourself....”，那么对方肯定会生气的，因为我们在用一种类似：你这个老不死样的口吻在跟他说话。</P>
<P>而，“老北京”说的不仅是北京城历经沧桑，而且还有文化底蕴、美好未来的内涵在。</P>
<P>由此，我认为把“老北京”翻译成“old beijing”并不是很妥。</P> justdoit和其他几个英语好的可以给参谋一下啊，看看到底怎么说好。 <P>Indigenous beijing or Original beijing</P> Go through the trials and hardship of beijing <P>我认为original beijing 可以考虑。</P> 定好了名字，是不是也给网站名称弄个英文缩写啊？ <P> 西方世界最认可的是<FONT color=#c62d07>PEKING</FONT>，Peking的前面加“老”，就比较好了。</P><P> 中国城市的西文名字，如Peking ,Tientsin(天津）Canton(广州，后来采用Kwangchou) ，一直用到80年代初，中国政府才颁布用汉语拼音命名法的。</P><P> <FONT size=2>我建议用</FONT><FONT color=#a32929 face=Verdana size=5><EM>P<FONT size=4>EKING</FONT><FONT size=1>,</FONT></EM><FONT color=#000000 size=1>前面加什么可商议。</FONT></FONT></P> AntiquityBeijing或是Venerable Beijing，怎么样啊？ <P>我常和外国人说，during Ming or Qing dynasty,一般都比较具体，没有说过old beijing!</P> Antiquity and Oringinal can be considered, I think. 今天在一个blog上看到有人说laobeijing，呵呵。看样子还是个老外 <P>我倒觉得这都是无所谓的事儿，不如就用old吧，这个词儿最简单、最好记，同样也有“古老”的意思，没必要搞这么复杂。更何况咱们老北京的英文名字，也没必要那么严丝合缝儿地符合英语的语义，就让“oldbeijing”这个字眼变成一个“logo”印在人们的脑子里不是更好吗？只要老外进了胡同、四合院儿，还怕他们不能理解“old”的真正含义吗？</P><P>另外，fengken老师说的关于用Beijing还是用Peking的问题，对于老外，以前的确是接受“Peking”更多一些，这个说法也更地道。但是最近几年来，绝大多数老外已经完全接受了Beijing这种拼法，甚至有的人已经不知道“Peking”指的是哪个城市了。所以拙见就用“Beijing”也未尝不可。除非什么时候咱们国家出台个“英文地名、人名标准化词典”之类的，呵呵。</P> <P><FONT color=#000066><b>小苜蓿 </b><FONT color=#000000>说得对， 其实什么名字只是一个观念上的东西， 可以改的，没有对错之分。</FONT></FONT></P><P>就像有些专用名词还不是照样老式翻译。</P> 我知道的就只有在机票里和北京大学用PEKING这个词，其他地方已经不用了 <P>个人觉得只用Peking就可以了罢... 北平</P><P>在国外念书，多数人对Beijing和Peking的认识仅限于历史阶段不同，老北京一词固然有一层文化的涵义，但若按国人逻辑直译，看似简单易懂，其实此类修饰法不符合欧美人的语言习惯，若是要强调文化含义的话个人认为不如用音译，他们不懂，才会更有探知的动力</P> <DIV class=quote><B>以下是引用<I>小苜蓿</I>在2005-12-27 13:37:17的发言：</B>
<P>我倒觉得这都是无所谓的事儿，不如就用old吧，这个词儿最简单、最好记，同样也有“古老”的意思，没必要搞这么复杂。更何况咱们老北京的英文名字，也没必要那么严丝合缝儿地符合英语的语义，就让“oldbeijing”这个字眼变成一个“logo”印在人们的脑子里不是更好吗？只要老外进了胡同、四合院儿，还怕他们不能理解“old”的真正含义吗？</P>
<P>另外，fengken老师说的关于用Beijing还是用Peking的问题，对于老外，以前的确是接受“Peking”更多一些，这个说法也更地道。但是最近几年来，绝大多数老外已经完全接受了Beijing这种拼法，甚至有的人已经不知道“Peking”指的是哪个城市了。所以拙见就用“Beijing”也未尝不可。除非什么时候咱们国家出台个“英文地名、人名标准化词典”之类的，呵呵。</P></DIV>
I agree. 英文我还真不行。。。。 <P>干脆就laobeijing得了，跟Tanghulu,lvdagun...之类的一样，就直接把中文用拼音传到国外吧，省事．毕竟翻译没有十全十美的．为了保存原来的意思，就laobeijing吧，等有人问了就解释给他们听．</P>
赞成小苜蓿，oldbeijing挺好
我觉得小苜蓿说得很好。我每天都和外国同事一起工作，说old beijing，没什么人不明白的。现在北京的变化这么快，everyday new, 正好有个鲜明的对比。 <p>original beijing sounds better</p><p>Antiquity Beijing is not really approporiate since the word antiquity is specially for some old stuff from the Empire of Rome or Greece,and the word venerable is always used for elders (human kind) but not for a city</p> <p> ancient Beijing?</p> <p>现在的外国人好像已经习惯了Beijing这个称谓了，提到Peiking只有在一些专用名词的地方使用，比如Peiking Opera或是Peiking Man</p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">扯闲篇儿：</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"> <p></p></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 21pt; mso-char-indent-count: 2.0; mso-char-indent-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">现在的外国人习惯</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">Beijing </font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">这个称呼，是由于</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">80</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">年代以后政府强化了汉语拼音的规范。我记得</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">80</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">年代时在伦敦、旧金山的机场上的地名标注仍是</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">Peiking</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">。从发音的角度看，也许外国人称</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">Peiking </font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">较</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">Beijing </font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">要容易些。</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 21pt; mso-char-indent-count: 2.0; mso-char-indent-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">在美时我问过一些人，他们说，叫</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">Peiking </font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">是觉得有点古老的味道，也</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">easy</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">。叫</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"> Beijing</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">时很明显是在说现在的北京。这也许是外国人中一些中年以上的人，或是对中国、对北京有点了解的人的看法。</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 21pt; mso-char-indent-count: 2.0; mso-char-indent-size: 10.5pt;"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">称谓虽然是约定俗成的事，但也是可以改变的。我们现在所说的“老北京”，是一种历史、社会和文化的综合反映，历史的痕迹浓郁，因此，“老北京”的称谓一方面要反应古都的历史，但同时也要遵循现在的汉语拼音规范。所以，我还是建议使用“</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">Ancient Beijing</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">”</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">.</font></span></p> <p>Old, ancient, traditional都挺不错的。其实地理概念上的老北京已经缩得很小了，也是支离破碎了。人种学上的老北京存留更少，解放初期北京人口才一百万，全都算土生土长的北京人不过这么多，其他一千多万都是后来者。</p><p>其实，老北京最多是一种记忆，一种回味，也可用Nostalgical Beijing.</p> <span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">OLD BEIJING</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">最妥。</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">OLD</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">一词不仅有老的贬义，而且同人连用时，也不都是贬义，要看上下文。</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">OLD</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">包含褒义和中性的。</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">OLD</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">涵盖范围广，且口语书面语都可用。</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">PEKING</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">本身就是旧称，如加上</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">OLD</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">，则感觉太老了些，包括</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">DAIREN</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">等这类地名的旧称，用的越来越少，毕竟语言也在发展。</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">TRADITIONAL</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">，</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">VINTAGE</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">，</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">ORIGINAL</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">只强调一方面，太具体，</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">NOSTALGIC</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">略好些，但还是不如</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">OLD</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";">全面。从复杂到简单，</span><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 宋体; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">OLD SOUNDS BETTER</span> Nostalgic不是怀旧的么？不妥吧。。 <p>现在不都说new beijing new olympics吗</p><p>说old也没什么不妥吧!!!</p> 换一个话题吧 <p><font size="4">I saw your up words. All are good. I think the foreigners can understand "Lao Beijing",which is ok. Then I think of "aged". This also means "old". It can show Beijing has a long history.</font></p><p><font size="4">These are my opinon.</font></p> 其实OLD BEIJING就可以，我接触的外国人没有对此提出异意的,语言不是想的时间长，就能想出正确答案的。千万别太CHINGLISH了。
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